Posts by Joe Grundy

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

Joe Grundy

Narkissos:

Thanks for that - I am amazed by how much I learn on this board.

I'm particularly fascinated by the story of the visit to Pafos, probably because one can actually walk on the mosaic floors of the Roman public buildings and grand houses where presumably Paul would have had his audience. The mosaics were only discovered in the early 1960s, sso escaped vandalism, alteration, etc. Photos here: http://www.todheugh.plus.com/cyprus2004/slides/Mosaics-of-Pafos-1.html

The altercation with 'bar-Jesus' has always seemed a bit odd to me. I understand that Jesus/Yeshua was a fairly common Jewish name, and 'bar' means 'son of' or 'student/disciple of' (doesn't it?). In my cynical way, I wondered if this was an allegorical account of the victory of Paul's new religion over Judaism. Or does it have something to do with the other 'messiahs' that were around before and after the 'NT JC'? It wouldn't be surprising if some of their adherents had come here as things got more difficult in Roman-occupied Palestine, and Cyprus at the time seems to have been very tolerant of various religions - the gods were apparently happy to co-exist.

Cyprus at that time had a large and prosperous Jewish community, far enough away from Jerusalem perhaps to have relaxed some of the more stringent requirements of their religion. Barnabas, as a Cypriot Jew, would have had a friendlier welcome than an 'outsider'.

27

topic won't last long at this site

by crazyblondeb in

jw
friends

http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2303&reply=27#msg27 .

if this link works, i bet it don't last long.

anyone else for some fun?

Joe Grundy

We have to remember that children are notorius liars and not the saints that Childrens Welfare try to make them out as and would never lie.

This has made me angry and sad at the same time. Does the same thinking apply to adult rape victims?

Someone please reassure me quickly that this is NOT a common belief amongst JWs.

This sort of thinking puts the investigation of rape and child abuse back 40 years or more. There has been research in the UK to look at the incidence of false allegations of rape. Found to be far lower than false allegations of other crimes. Unfortunately, I spent many years investigating rape and child abuse. I have never, repeat never identified am allegation as false.

I have encountered abused children who told lies - almost invariably because they were scared to tell the truth because of threats from the abuse or from shame, and almost invariably the lie was initially to deny the abuse or the extent of it.

The dangerous and misguided misconception in the quote above needs killing, now.

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

Joe Grundy

Sorry to but in here again amongst the scholars and academics (and thanks, everyone, I am learning a great deal here!),but back to the historical 'what happened' question -

I live in Cyprus. Paul and Barnabas (who was a Cypriot) came here in about 45 AD and allegedly converted the proconsul Sergius Paulus. Cyprus thus became apparently the first place under a christian ruler. But at the same time, worship of the previous gods continued, especially that of Aphrodite (indeed, many church festivals here today are based on the Aphrodite cult. Kataklysmos is a good example. Held by the church to be a commemoration of the Flood, it's actually a celebration of the birth of Aphrodite from the sea).

The Jewish rebellion of 116AD hit hard on the island (there was only a small Roman garrison) and virtually the entire gentile population of Salamis (Barnabas' home town) was killed. When the rebellion was put down, all Jews were expelled from the island.

But christianity developed only slowly, alongside other religions. Most of the mosaic floors at Paphos (a short walk from where I live) which celebrate the ancient gods were completed in the late 3rd/early 4th centuries AD - i.e. only a very few years before Constantine designated christianity as the 'preferred religion'. Some of the catacombs were used in turn by pagans, jews and christians.

So there never was an 'overnight transition' as I had innocently once believed. Christianity developed alongside other religions and there was (I suspect) far more of an interchange between them than 'fundamentalists' might realise or suspect.

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

Joe Grundy

As an outsider, and an intellectual pygmy in comparison with many of the posters on here, may I offer an experience and a suggestion?

I was brought up in a non-conformist protestant religion which believed the Bible to be completely true and divinely inspired. As I got older, I began to question the huge gap between the end of the OT and the begining of the NT. I also questioned the image presented by the NT of Jesus living in a peaceful and fairly moderate land (there were a few clues otherwise, but they were glossed over) where there were a few Romans about and everyone was happy until Jesus upset the Jewish leaders (by blasphemy?) so they handed him over to the Romans who crucified him.

And what a load of crap that false picture is! About as realistic as a portrayal of Nazi-occupied countries in WWII Europe as being places where there were a few German soldiers about and some dissidents and undesirables were shipped out by train.

My suggestion - have a look at the history and books of the apocrypha - the Maccabbean revolts, etc. Put the NT in historical context. Look at the history of Qumran, at the Roman quashing of actual and potential revolts (was it 2000 crucifixions the NT mentions?).

Then look at what was actaully happening there between the death of Jesus and the writing of the gospels. Consider Masada (thought until not too long ago to be mythical, just like Troy used to be). Consider the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

Then consider whether Paul would have had much success in marketing his new religion (and new religion it surely was, he accepted as much) as one based on and grounded in Jewish religious belief to an audience in the Roman empire in the light of events happening at the time.

And always remember - it is the victors who write the history.

I offer no religious or theological references or arguments, just suggest that an understanding of the historical context may raise questions - it certainly did for me.

15

Garrison Keller, a national treasure ...Anyone else think so?

by confusedjw in

jw
friends

i just love that show.

although not so much for the music, but for gk's story telling.. any other fans?.

Joe Grundy

For me, the funniest stories are 'Homecoming' from 'Leaving Home' (the one about about the tractor and trailer carrying the 'family heritage) and the one about the pontoon boat and the visiting Methodist ministers.

I could especially relate to the chapter 'Protestant' in 'Lake Wobegon Days'.

And I continue to love 'WLT - A Radio Romance'.

15

Garrison Keller, a national treasure ...Anyone else think so?

by confusedjw in

jw
friends

i just love that show.

although not so much for the music, but for gk's story telling.. any other fans?.

Joe Grundy

Yes, I absolutely agree - but also widely appreciated outside the US.

I have read and re-read all of his books many times and always find something new to laugh at. I have a 5 cd set of his monologues but unfortunately left it in storgage in the UK by mistake.

I particularly enjoy his stories/comments on 'the brethren' meetings, having been brought up as one myself.

In my one and only visit to the US I visited his country cabin in WI, but unfortunately he wasn't at home. And I'm sure I visited some small towns that really were LW.

110

WT desparate: Aug 15 WT- In Our Next Issue: When A Loved One Leaves Jehovah

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

no, i don't have this article yet, it will appear in the sep 1, 2006 wt.

it may even be a wt study article.. in the august 15 watchtower, the box "in our next issue" has three forthcoming articles, and one of them is "when a loved one leaves jehovah".

of interest, it's not when a loved one leaves the society, it's jehovah.. will keep you posted.

Joe Grundy

As an outsider, I found this article fascinating.

The subliminal messages in the illustrations: white affluent couple with (apparently) nice home, nice clothes and neatly brushed hair even in moments of distress. (You could achieve this affluence if you were a JW). The 'left Jehovah' guy on the country lane (you'll end up lonely).

No mention that it's common or even usual for kids as they grow up to become independent and want to do their own thing and question what they've been taught, and that's an essential part of growing up. No mention at all of the 'departed one', as if they're completely excluded. No mention of telling the kid 'we're your parents, we love you no matter what your choices are even if we don't agree with them'. No mention that parents may want to spend more time together giving support to each other.

Oh, and expend more time in the organisation and don't question or criticise it if the 'loving discipline' has caused or added to your problems.

If I were in the situation of the parents, I would find this article completely useless and even insulting.

455

In the spirit of match-making, who do you have a crush on?

by MsMcDucket in

eh heh?

i know this is either going to be one of those topics where people consider it a popularity contest or something....i'm just being an imp and seeing if anyone will be forward enough to tell about the person that they would like to date.. me, i'm married so that leaves me out!

but i have seen a lot of beefcakes on here!

Joe Grundy

Hi Crumpet

No, I don't have a worldly brother on here. And I don't have any spiritual brothers anywhere, afaik.

I've made a few friends here and there, though.

24

HELP!! ADVICE....Saying NO to pioneering

by Kristofer in

jw
friends

i have a female friend who i've been discussing the religion with.

she definitely has doubts about the org but isn't sure on leaving just yet as she has still got about 6 months to go being a minor dependent on the parents.

lately, she's been getting heavy pressure to start pioneering.

Joe Grundy

Tell people she's worried that she may have endometrosis. It would take way past her majority to diagnose properly, and if anyone really wants to know she can let her imagination run riot with 'female' symptoms. If her accounts are inconsistent she can put it down to embarrassment.

455

In the spirit of match-making, who do you have a crush on?

by MsMcDucket in

eh heh?

i know this is either going to be one of those topics where people consider it a popularity contest or something....i'm just being an imp and seeing if anyone will be forward enough to tell about the person that they would like to date.. me, i'm married so that leaves me out!

but i have seen a lot of beefcakes on here!

Joe Grundy

How do we swap MSN thingys?